Talk: Look alikes of the Doctor

"Look alike"[]

I'm not sure whether this has been spoken about before but "look alike" isn't the proper spelling of this word. The two official spellings are "lookalike" and "look-alike". "(to) look alike" is a verbal phrase, not a noun. Changing this little thing may be a lot of work, but I personally think we should ensure our English is correct on this Wiki. I know everyone knows what we mean by "look alike", but everyone would know what we meant if we used the Americanism "realize", but we don't because this a Wiki that uses British English. Not a great comparison, I know.

It's just a suggestion. If admins are fine with what we already have, then so be it, but I wanted to point it out regardless as it's been playing on my mind for a while now. And since we now have "Twelfth Doctor (Shadow World)", it just crept back into my mind. TheFartyDoctor ^Talk 22:07, May 26, 2017 (UTC)

regarding the people who voiced the Doctor in radio dramas[]

no offense but to quote the Tenth Doctor "That's just cheating", I mean that's a bit of a stretch isn't it? --Draph91 ☎ 16:38, January 15, 2019 (UTC)

and I mean their live action appearances, not their radio drama roles, if the characters they voiced looked like an incarnation of the Doctor --Draph91 ☎ 16:41, January 15, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I've always thought that this category was often misunderstood and misused. Shambala108 ☎ 20:15, January 15, 2019 (UTC)

so will you remove some of the pages?--Draph91 ☎ 23:12, January 15, 2019 (UTC)

Setting boundaries[]

I propose that instead of deleting the category, it should contain only those which have been explicitly mentioned as looking like the Doctor in a valid narrative. I think this category contains some interesting info but has been largely reduced to "Other characters that have been played by actors who played the Doctor". The fact that Second Time Lord (The War Games) is in here because of a never mentioned connection to The Doctor (Seven Keys to Doomsday) is frankly absurd. --Borisashton ☎ 22:33, February 27, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with this proposition. For a long time, this category has annoyed me, but with this rule, all speculation would be removed from its usage. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 22:36, February 27, 2019 (UTC)

I agree that this category should be confined to characters who are actually mentioned to resemble the Doctor, and I would rather the category live on, but as always, we have to remember that users adding a category likely will not see or read the description. If there's room for misuse, and we decide to define exact parameters, then we'd have to actively monitor its use. That said, there are plenty of categories like that, and we've had no problem so far reverting and undoing when a category is used incorrectly. Would renaming this something like "Individuals said to look like the Doctor" aid in clarity, or is the current name evident enough on its own?
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 08:05, March 1, 2019 (UTC)

I think "Individuals said to look like the Doctor" has a nice ring to it and would certainly dispel any concerns of its ambiguity. Category:Look alikes of the Master also exists but needs to be deleted as per Tardis:Rule of three. --Borisashton ☎ 16:00, March 1, 2019 (UTC)

This page is problematic, John Smith (Tenth Doctor) and Ruth Clayton are not lookalikes of the Doctor - they ARE him. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 23:32, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

…or her, as the case may be, cough cough. When in doubt, use "them".

But more to the point, why do you think we have pages about those characters if they're just the Doctor? It's kind of the whole point of Human Nature/The Family of Blood (TV story) that John Smith really, really isn't the Doctor. He comes into being when the Doctor's essence vacates his body and goes to hide in the fobwatch. But he is, for every philosophical intent and purpose, a different individual. That's the whole tragedy of it. John Smith has to die — to be, in the episode's own words, executed — for the Tenth Doctor to come back and beat the bad guys.

It's a bit of a weird case to be sure, but it's I think undeniable that both John Smiths (and, by extension, all Chameleon Arch identities) are to be treated as different people from the Doctor. Now, it goes without saying that those different people look just like the Doctor. Ergo, if they're people who are emphatically not the Doctor, but look like the Doctor, they are lookalikes of the Doctor. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 23:41, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

We will not agree on this subject, and therefore it is too ambiguous to keep the category on them. The characters still are the Doctor. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 23:47, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Your personal hang-ups are not relevant. If the Wiki chooses to side with "John Smith isn't the Doctor", then we should be consistent with that decision. Or should we move every page about a NuWho Doctor to "Of ambiguous canonicity" because some fans think the BBC Wales series isn't "canon"?… --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 23:57, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Ignoring your rudeness, a page cannot use "aliases of the Doctor" and then "lookalike of the Doctor". It either is or it isn't, and I choose to believe that it IS the Doctor (just altered using the chameleon arch) and therefore not a lookalike. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 23:59, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Worth mentioning that I have just removed every character in the category where the physical resemblance is based solely upon shared actors.

Epsilon📯 📂

10:18, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

That's a pretty monumental change. Why did you do it without discussion? – n8 (☎) 20:03, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Pending the discussions here and at Talk:John Frobisher, I've reverted the removal of this category from the following pages: Billis, Luke Betterman, Billy (Pier Pressure), Martin Bannister, Adelphi, Rick Yates, Straxus, Solomon (Dinosaurs on a Spaceship), Siris, Shadovar, Gabriel Sanders, Peter Russell, Gavin Purcell, Ander Poul, Organon, Jeremiah O'Kane, The Master, Sherlock Holmes, Mycroft Holmes, Grisenko, Galanar, John Frobisher, Colin Dove, Daniel (The Sphere), and Cuthbert (The Sands of Life). – n8 (☎) 20:22, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Removed it again from Adelphi, since they don't look anything like any Doctor which we consider VALID. Quite honestly though I'm very tempted to remove it again from the rest as well since I utterly agree with all arguments made against the continued existence of the category in its current form so far. NightmareofEden ☎ 19:59, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Ixnay. The Doctor (Seven Keys to Doomsday) is a valid Doctor per the Big Finish audio play even if the original stage play isn't valid, so invalidity of sources is not grounds to remove the category from Adelphi's page and I have placed it again. Naturally other arguments made here may lead to its re-removal, but no ruling has been made here yet, so T:BOUND applies on those fronts and the category should remain at "Adelphi" until something solid comes up; Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 20:05, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

My mistake. I for some reason was under the impression that Trevor Martin wasn't in BF's version. Idk why. But it does bring me to another point. Trevor Martin looks rather different when playing the Seven Keys Doctor compared to when playing Adelphi, due to being quite a bit older. So really the ONLY "justification" (if one can call it that, which one can't, with a straight face at least) for plopping this category on the page is the shared actors, which isn't an in-universe factor so has no business being on an in-universe page. NightmareofEden ☎ 20:21, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Mh. The old age is, I suppose, a fair point, so I'll let your removal stand for now. But even that is a gray area. Again, whatever we decide here (as regards characters who look identical to Doctors due to shared actors, but have not been explicitly pointed out as lookalikes in-text), we have not decided it yet, so T:BOUND applies and you should not remove any categories based only on "they've not been called lookalikes in-universe even if we can see it's Jon Pertwee"-type reasonings. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 20:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Reviving the discussion here, I want to lay down some thoughts about this category and boundaries that I think we can agree to impose:

Firstly, I'd say that this category should be solely about natural lookalikes - with subcates handling other cases. (as is already the case for Clones) For instance, people masquerading as the Doctor by assuming their physical characteristics would be more accurately served under the existing sub-cate of "Individuals who altered their appearance to look like the Doctor." (That also handily maintains neutrality on individual intents.)
Thus, secondly, no Chameleon Arch-ed identities. John Smith, Ruth Clayton etc. They don't naturally look like the Doctor. They are the Doctor. (And covered under Aliases of the Doctor & Chameleon Arch identities already, in terms of cates)
Thirdly, no editorial/OoU presumptions. Billis might look like the Weir-Third Doctor to us - but that's not a resemblance we've seen claimed in-universe in any manner. Nor do I recall this for Kotris. Ditto this for, I believe, all the characters David Warner has played besides Warner-Three (or 'Unbound' as some term him) Doctor. Indeed - the page lead for this cate says If a character is portrayed by an actor who portrayed the Doctor, they should not be entered into this category solely based upon the shared actor, as this is not confirmation that they lookalike in-universe. Well, Gavin Purcell definitely hasn't been denoted as looking like the Fifth Doctor! In my opinion, it's disingenuous to leave that as such.

Other matters:

Should android Doctors not just have their own separate distinct sub-category? Arguably, they don't naturally look like the Doctor - they've been engineered to resemble them. [Sidenote on this: should the current Fifth Doctor (android) pageactually be Fifth Doctor (Caves of Androzani android)? Since Resurrection has one sitting around too...]
Should the Ganger version of the Eleventh Doctor be under this category or under the subcate of Clones of the Doctor? I'd argue clones personally.
Holo-Ghost Twelve, Shadow World Twelve and Mirror Edinburgh Eight. I'd say Holo-Ghost Twelve should be under a new sub-cate of Holograms called "Holograms of the Doctor" (we at the least have Emergency Program One, Holo-Doctor and this Holo-Ghost...) I am as yet undecided about the other two.

JDPManjoume ☎ 10:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)