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| + | {{you may|Forum:Is there hard evidence that Goth and the Bernard Horsfall Time Lord in the War Games are the same person?|n1=a conversation about Chancellor Goth that arose from this discussion}} |
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Forgive me if this is obvious (or conversely, a load of gibbering nonsense), but most of my ''Doctor Who'' knowledge is from the 2005 revival and bits and bobs of the classic series. I know ''of'' Season 6B being established in ''[[TV Comic]]'' and the [[BBC Past Doctor Adventures]] and I know ''of'' the CIA being referenced in ''The Deadly Assassin'', though I've read and watched neither. |
Forgive me if this is obvious (or conversely, a load of gibbering nonsense), but most of my ''Doctor Who'' knowledge is from the 2005 revival and bits and bobs of the classic series. I know ''of'' Season 6B being established in ''[[TV Comic]]'' and the [[BBC Past Doctor Adventures]] and I know ''of'' the CIA being referenced in ''The Deadly Assassin'', though I've read and watched neither. |
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| − | Currently, the [[Second Doctor#Working for the Time Lords|Second Doctor]]'s page effectively says that two contradictory accounts say that either the [[Celestial Intervention Agency|CIA]] sent the Second Doctor to the incident with Omega, or that |
+ | Currently, the [[Second Doctor#Working for the Time Lords|Second Doctor]]'s page effectively says that two contradictory accounts say that either the [[Celestial Intervention Agency|CIA]] sent the Second Doctor to the incident with Omega during [[Season 6B]], or that he was taken from the [[Land of Fiction]] some time after ''The Invasion'' (and implicitly, before ''The War Games'', though maybe I'm reading into that improperly). So, is ''The Three Doctors'' said to be part of the Second Doctor's post-trial adventures in the novels (but not [[PROSE]]: ''[[Future Imperfect (short story)|Future Imperfect]]'', where the Land of Fiction thing comes in), or is it a (not unreasonable, given ''Future Imperfect'' seems to contradict the Time Lords not putting the Doctor on trial sooner) assumption based on the fact that the CIA is behind all missions post-''The War Games''? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 15:57, November 10, 2012 (UTC) |
| + | :It took me a few reads of ''Future Imperfect'' to understand what was wrong with the article. It's such a tiny little ¾ page story that every word is actually important. The basic deal is that our article has it wrong that there are contradictory accounts. There's one account, its name is ''Future Imperfect'', and the article needs to be restructured so that it makes more sense. The problem with the article is that the placement of the information is such that it implies serial RRR happened post-''War Games''. It didn't. It happened, according to ''Imperfect'', sometime after ''The Mind Robber'', but while Zoe was still on board. I'll rewrite [[Second Doctor]]. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 18:50: Sat 10 Nov 2012</span> |
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| + | ::Okay, I've restructured the article by adding a new section, [[Second Doctor#Defending against Omega]] and [[Second Doctor#A trip with the Brig]], and by renaming the section you quoted as "Working for the CIA". We don't know, precisely, when RRR or 6K take place. The best we can do is to just use language that suggests our lack of knowledge and quarantine them off into their own sections. |
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| + | ::Another thing we must keep clear in the "Defending against Omega" section is that the Doctor ''thinks'' he remembers the Goth from "presiding over meetings of the CIA". That's a direct quote. The Doctor ''could'' be wrong. It is ''not'' fair to say, like the article did before, that RRR was a CIA mission. Just that Two knows there's some kind of connection between Goth and the CIA. Don't forget, too, that Goth is not actually in RRR and he doesn't get named until ''Deadly Assassin'', three years later. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 19:14: Sat 10 Nov 2012</span> |
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| − | Now, given that the CIA wasn't actually established nominally until ''The Deadly Assassin'', I'm assuming that the Time Lords that summoned the Second Doctor to sort out the black hole aren't explicitly said to be them (behind the scenes comments from Holmes aside). So, is ''The Three Doctors'' said to be part of the Second Doctor's post-trial adventures in the novels (but not [[PROSE]]: ''[[Future Imperfect (short story)|Future Imperfect]]''), or is it a (not unreasonable) assumption based on (according to the CIA page's behind the scenes section) the CIA is behind all missions assigned to the Second and possibly Third Doctor? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 15:31, November 10, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | :::How would we approach the reference to ''The Three Doctors'' in the "Fans start to ponder things" in [[Season 6B]] given that a valid source has definitively placed ''The Three Doctors outside'' of 6B? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 19:32, November 10, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | ::::RRR is grossly misrepresented on the page [[Season 6B]], not just in the section you quote, but also in the chart. As far as I know, there is no narrative source for RRR being in 6B at all. (That chart needs to be redone so that actual sources are given, not just a vague "established in other media" line.) {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 20:39: Sat 10 Nov 2012</span> |
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| + | :::::Despite the plot hole of the Time Lords locating the Doctor prior to ''The War Games'' and not putting him on trial, I think that the ''Future Imperfect'' version of events should be accepted as more or less definitive since, as far as I can, no other officially licensed source states anything about whether ''The Three Doctors'' takes place in Season 6B, good, bad or indifferent. --[[User:GusF|GusF]] [[User talk:GusF|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:35, November 16, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | :::::: Concrete evidence from a licensed source beats speculation (not completely baseless, considering ''The Two Doctors'' and ''The Five Doctors'' almost certainly ''are'' 6B stories) over "but if it isn't, how did the Time Lords find him and yet he wasn't put him on trial?". -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 22:59, November 17, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | ::::::: Although I do think it is in 6B there is a perfectly good argument for it not to be: These later timelords COULDN'T put Two on trial because his actual trial would be in their personal past, if they changed that it would severely disrupt the timeline. [[Special:Contributions/114.30.102.155|114.30.102.155]]<sup>[[User talk:114.30.102.155#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:32, November 18, 2012 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 04:42, 12 December 2012
Forums → Archive index → Reference desk archives → The Three Doctors not Season 6B?
- You may be looking for a conversation about Chancellor Goth that arose from this discussion.
Forgive me if this is obvious (or conversely, a load of gibbering nonsense), but most of my Doctor Who knowledge is from the 2005 revival and bits and bobs of the classic series. I know of Season 6B being established in TV Comic and the BBC Past Doctor Adventures and I know of the CIA being referenced in The Deadly Assassin, though I've read and watched neither.
Currently, the Second Doctor's page effectively says that two contradictory accounts say that either the CIA sent the Second Doctor to the incident with Omega during Season 6B, or that he was taken from the Land of Fiction some time after The Invasion (and implicitly, before The War Games, though maybe I'm reading into that improperly). So, is The Three Doctors said to be part of the Second Doctor's post-trial adventures in the novels (but not PROSE: Future Imperfect, where the Land of Fiction thing comes in), or is it a (not unreasonable, given Future Imperfect seems to contradict the Time Lords not putting the Doctor on trial sooner) assumption based on the fact that the CIA is behind all missions post-The War Games? -- Tybort (talk page) 15:57, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
- It took me a few reads of Future Imperfect to understand what was wrong with the article. It's such a tiny little ¾ page story that every word is actually important. The basic deal is that our article has it wrong that there are contradictory accounts. There's one account, its name is Future Imperfect, and the article needs to be restructured so that it makes more sense. The problem with the article is that the placement of the information is such that it implies serial RRR happened post-War Games. It didn't. It happened, according to Imperfect, sometime after The Mind Robber, but while Zoe was still on board. I'll rewrite Second Doctor.
czechout ☎ ✍ 18:50: Sat 10 Nov 2012- Okay, I've restructured the article by adding a new section, Second Doctor#Defending against Omega and Second Doctor#A trip with the Brig, and by renaming the section you quoted as "Working for the CIA". We don't know, precisely, when RRR or 6K take place. The best we can do is to just use language that suggests our lack of knowledge and quarantine them off into their own sections.
- Another thing we must keep clear in the "Defending against Omega" section is that the Doctor thinks he remembers the Goth from "presiding over meetings of the CIA". That's a direct quote. The Doctor could be wrong. It is not fair to say, like the article did before, that RRR was a CIA mission. Just that Two knows there's some kind of connection between Goth and the CIA. Don't forget, too, that Goth is not actually in RRR and he doesn't get named until Deadly Assassin, three years later.
czechout ☎ ✍ 19:14: Sat 10 Nov 2012- How would we approach the reference to The Three Doctors in the "Fans start to ponder things" in Season 6B given that a valid source has definitively placed The Three Doctors outside of 6B? -- Tybort (talk page) 19:32, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
- RRR is grossly misrepresented on the page Season 6B, not just in the section you quote, but also in the chart. As far as I know, there is no narrative source for RRR being in 6B at all. (That chart needs to be redone so that actual sources are given, not just a vague "established in other media" line.)
czechout ☎ ✍ 20:39: Sat 10 Nov 2012- Despite the plot hole of the Time Lords locating the Doctor prior to The War Games and not putting him on trial, I think that the Future Imperfect version of events should be accepted as more or less definitive since, as far as I can, no other officially licensed source states anything about whether The Three Doctors takes place in Season 6B, good, bad or indifferent. --GusF ☎ 20:35, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Concrete evidence from a licensed source beats speculation (not completely baseless, considering The Two Doctors and The Five Doctors almost certainly are 6B stories) over "but if it isn't, how did the Time Lords find him and yet he wasn't put him on trial?". -- Tybort (talk page) 22:59, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Although I do think it is in 6B there is a perfectly good argument for it not to be: These later timelords COULDN'T put Two on trial because his actual trial would be in their personal past, if they changed that it would severely disrupt the timeline. 114.30.102.155talk to me 14:32, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Concrete evidence from a licensed source beats speculation (not completely baseless, considering The Two Doctors and The Five Doctors almost certainly are 6B stories) over "but if it isn't, how did the Time Lords find him and yet he wasn't put him on trial?". -- Tybort (talk page) 22:59, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Despite the plot hole of the Time Lords locating the Doctor prior to The War Games and not putting him on trial, I think that the Future Imperfect version of events should be accepted as more or less definitive since, as far as I can, no other officially licensed source states anything about whether The Three Doctors takes place in Season 6B, good, bad or indifferent. --GusF ☎ 20:35, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
- RRR is grossly misrepresented on the page Season 6B, not just in the section you quote, but also in the chart. As far as I know, there is no narrative source for RRR being in 6B at all. (That chart needs to be redone so that actual sources are given, not just a vague "established in other media" line.)
- How would we approach the reference to The Three Doctors in the "Fans start to ponder things" in Season 6B given that a valid source has definitively placed The Three Doctors outside of 6B? -- Tybort (talk page) 19:32, November 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Another thing we must keep clear in the "Defending against Omega" section is that the Doctor thinks he remembers the Goth from "presiding over meetings of the CIA". That's a direct quote. The Doctor could be wrong. It is not fair to say, like the article did before, that RRR was a CIA mission. Just that Two knows there's some kind of connection between Goth and the CIA. Don't forget, too, that Goth is not actually in RRR and he doesn't get named until Deadly Assassin, three years later.