Please DO NOT add to this discussion.
This is my first time posting one of these, so let's see if I can get my thoughts out right. Also, I have to say I'm a big River Song fan, so I might just be keeping my hopes up that she'll return!
Did anyone else find it strange that River Song seemed not to know Clara when they were introduced? This is the River who, having died, apparently knows all she'll ever know about the Doctor, but seems like she's never seen or heard of Clara. But after Clara is in the Doctor's time stream, she says "Spoilers", hinting that she knows who Clara is to the Doctor, and what's going to happen. She also seems to be familiar with the Doctor going to Trenzalore. I just feel like there's more going on here than meets the eye, especially since all of these characters have a propensity to lie. [Unsigned but appears to be Rhoslynn 08:29, May 20, 2013 (UTC)]
River certainly does lie (& pretend -- quite convincingly) in order to avoid "spoilers", so it's entirely possible she's doing it again.
River died in the first story we saw her in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, so the fact that The Name of the Doctor was later in her timestream than that (meaning she's dead, except on CAL's hard drive) needn't prevent her appearing again -- alive.
We still don't know who was the "woman in the shop" who gave Clara the TARDIS phone number, thereby getting her to Trenzalore to save the day (rather a lot of days, in fact). River has always seemed to me the most likely suspect. Clara's failure to recognise River doesn't mean much. At the point when Clara met the "woman in the shop", she'd not be likely to pay that much attention to what the woman looked like, so even a fairly thin disguise would have been enough. (It's generally only after they've travelled with the Doctor for a while that companions become properly alert for signs that things aren't what they seem to be.) Clara having that phone number was utterly vital & there aren't many people who'd have known it & been able to give it to her. If it wasn't River, it was still someone important to the events & we don't know who.
"I just feel like there's more going on here than meets the eye": I reckon that's as safe a bet as you'll ever find! --89.242.72.3talk to me 10:32, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
i always thought that the woman in the shop was clara herself but one of her incarnations or a future one who geve herself the number to set up her meeting the doctor.....but yes i think river will be back she knew why trenzalore was so terrible for the doctor when nobody else did (as it is his biggest secret after all) even to the point of her reaction was of shock and fear where as her reaction to soon be going to the pandorica before was pretty relaxed even though in both situation the universe was going to die........she knows what the secret means to the doctor even if she doesnt know what it is exactly (which she might) she will be back
rule number 2: river always knows more than she is letting on 87.83.10.218talk to me 10:54, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
87, "i always thought that the woman in the shop was clara herself": That thought did occur to me but the big problem with it is that all Clara's incarnations look like Clara & we know that Clara can recognise herself. Of course, a much older Clara is a possibility & it wouldn't need to be one of her other selves. It could be the original Clara at a greater age. Alternatively, it could be a Clara in some kind of disguise.
My own main suspect for the "woman in the shop" is still River. Like the creator of this discussion (presumably Rhoslynn), I simply don't believe that River didn't already know Clara. River is good at that sort of pretending. She has to be. An outstanding example is in The Time of Angels, when River pretends she's never met Amy before. Amy is her mother but, thanks to time travel, she grew up with Amy in Leadworth, she helped to get Amy & Rory together as a couple, Amy was there when she regenerated into her River incarnation & so on. If she could pretend so convincingly that she didn't know Amy, pretending that she didn't know Clara would be a stroll in the park.
Clara didn't seem to know River, either, of course, & that probably was genuine. It doesn't rule out River as the "woman in the shop". A disguise is possible &, at the stage where she met the "woman in the shop", Clara hadn't started travelling with the Doctor, so she hadn't developed the alertness to things not being quite what they seem that tends to go with being a companion. --2.96.17.223talk to me 12:43, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
As an afterthought: Since we don't know yet if Clara will become as good at pretending as River is, it's still possible that she could become good enough at it to get away with being her own "woman in the shop". That would mean that Clara the companion set her younger self up to become a companion. Yet another bootstrap paradox -- something of which Moffat is especially fond! --2.96.17.223talk to me 12:50, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
- Clara was rather ignorant of all things tech at the time and seemed to ask anyone and everyone for guidance. Just because she was the one who mentioned the woman in the shop it doesn't follow that she met that woman herself.DCT ☎ 15:39, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
When the Doctor asked Clara how she'd got the TARDIS number, she not only told him she'd got it from the woman, she also quoted the woman about how good the supposed helpline was: "'the best ... in the universe,' she said," was what Clara told him. That means she at least had a conversation with the woman. Furthermore, Clara described her as "the woman in the shop", not "the woman on the phone" or whatever. It'd be a thoroughly unnatural way of speaking for Clara to say what she did unless she had met the woman & had met her in the shop. The dialogue doesn't leave any real room for another interpretation.
Clara did ask people for guidance about "things tech". That's probably why she asked the woman in the shop for a helpline number, to begin with. --89.240.243.203talk to me 20:45, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
- Just so glad to see this discussion! Had to make a few small editing changes because some viewers are under the impression because this River Song was dead, that this was her last encounter with The Doctor and we would see her no more. This might be their last encounter in HER timestream (or it may not!) but since The Doctor and her live their lives out of sequence, I both hope and expect to see a live River Song in future episodes. If they are living their lives in reverse order, as she has stated, it's unlikely that their last encounter would be the last for both of them.
- The only question I have is, like you, I wonder why she would pretend not to know Clara. I know that, like The Doctor, River lies but she seemed genuinely ignorant of who Clara was. But, I figure, since she seemed played dumb with both Amy and Rory when she met both of them despite (TV: Let's Kill Hitler), this isn't unprecedented. Badwolff ☎ 21:03, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Badwolff: I can't be sure of this (not with Moffat doing the writing I can't) but I have my suspicions that River pretending not to know Clara is connected with her "Spoilers!" line, just before she fades out. In particular, I think she knows something about Clara's future & she not only wants to avoid letting Clara know what it is but also wants to avoid Clara even suspecting that River could know something about her. In contrast, although River wouldn't tell the Doctor what it is she knows, she didn't seem to mind him realising that she does know something. As you say, with Clara, River did seem genuinely ignorant of Clara. With the Doctor, when Clara was absent, she didn't give such a convincing impression of ignorance. At least, that's how I saw it. --89.241.67.98talk to me 22:27, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
River has pretended not to konw people before...and if this is the River who is saved in the data core of the library, she likely knows about Clara already. I guess we'll just have to wait and see for sure. I would venture it is not only possible, but likely. Whosethebestwho ☎ 05:03, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
Is it just me, or did River seem to genuinely not recognize Rory as the Centurion in The Pandorica Opens? Maybe it's just because all memory of him was removed from the universe by the crack in time? But still. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 22:14, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
She did & it's possible she failed to remember him for the same reason Amy did -- he was too important a factor in her life. The trouble is that, no matter how genuine River's ignorance of a person or an event appears to be, we can never actually be sure she's not just pretending. --89.242.73.110talk to me 22:39, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Still, she only seemed to recognize Rory after seeing a picture of him when she searched Amy's room. At least, that's when she first told the Doctor she recognized him, although he'd already recognized him at first—no, second—no, third(?) glance. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 23:15, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Like I mentioned above, River also pretended not to know Amy at the Byzantium crash when, as Mels, she had grown up with Amy Let's Kill Hitler (TV story) who was present when she regenerated from Mels into River Song. I guess she is an exceptionally good liar, or, at least, a good bluffer. Badwolff ☎ 21:03, May 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Shes's good at both, and that's not all...remember in the big bag/the pandorica opens when she confronted the stone dalek? She told it to look her up adn it cried for mercy. Whosethebestwho ☎ 08:02, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
Just happened to watch The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang again on BBCAmerica this week and was a little stunned that a) River doesn't acknowledge Rory when she sees him in the Roman camp and b) when she later encounters Rory in the museum, she refers to him as "that Roman centurion." This is after she spent most of her childhood growing up alongside Rory and Amy! And knows that he is her father. Both The Doctor and River lie! Badwolff ☎ 22:07, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
River said exactly that to Amy in the garden scene at the end of The Wedding of River Song. After "the Doctor lies", she added, "so do I. Have to." (The scene's worth watching just for the moment when Amy says "And I'm his... mother-in-law!" as if she'd just found half a slug in her salad.) --92.23.88.49talk to me 22:53, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
Ghost River seems to be telling the Doctor that she has a mental link to Clara, and that allows her to continue to speak to him so long as Clara is alive. But what can this link be, between The Library and Clara? But The Doctor says he can always see and hear River. That doesn't sound like "...ever since Clara came."Phil Stone ☎ 07:00, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
- The link was because of the "conference call", the seance with Madame Vastra, Strax, Jenny, Clara and River. I assume that when River disappeared from The Doctor's view, she "severed" that link with Clara.
- The bigger question is how on Earth did Madame Vastra send an invitation to a being that only exists on a hard drive many centuries in the future on a planet in a galaxy, far, far away. This seems like it would be beyond Vastra's power to do. Badwolff ☎ 20:46, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
- In her letter to Clara, Vastra said that the Doctor had told her how to contact Clara. It's possible that he also gave her the means to contact River. That still leaves the puzzle of why he'd pick that point in River's timestream -- after her death in the Library -- for the contact. It doesn't explain, either, how a "data ghost" could manage to take part in a psychic conference call.
- We know, anyway, that Vastra & co have devices well in advance of present-day human technology, never mind 1890s technology. Jenny used a portable forcefield generator to stop the "ice governess" getting down the stairs in The Snowmen, for example. They were also able to revive Victorian Clara, even though it was only temporary. In the psychic conference call, Jenny remarked that Vastra had "changed the desktop". That's not an expression she'd have picked up in the normal course of life in late-Victorian London.
- Some of that may be Silurian technology but it looks as if the Doctor has been giving them a helping hand, too. And the standard Time Lord method of contacting TARDISes across time & space was via the telepathic circuits (seen in The Doctor's Wife but used more in the classic series, when there were other Time Lords to use it). If the Doctor had given Vastra some of that Time Lord telepathic technology, for use in emergencies, it could have been it that Vastra used to contact River. --89.241.74.123talk to me 12:44, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
In The Library,when River got 10 by mistake, she said she was using her normal methods of caling the Doctor. Perhaps this was again just a mistake that Vastra got River in the Library rather than alive River. By using the ghost River they leave open when River actually learned the Doctor's name, just sometime before she died. And any call to live River would also have to cross centuries.Phil Stone ☎ 05:19, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
Phil Stone, "any call to live River would also have to cross centuries": Indeed it would &, in the thread Moffat_lied...again, 98.180.49.69 pointed out that the Trenzalore prophecy said that no living being could fail to answer or speak falsely -- but River, in The Name of the Doctor wasn't a living being, so she'd be exempt from those constraints. Since Moffat could have had River turn up from an earlier point in her timeline, if he'd wanted to, the fact that he chose to have her appear post mortem is quite likely to be significant, possibly because of exactly that exemption (though there might be other reasons, too). Maybe it was just chance or error on Vastra's part (in universe) but it isn't likely to have been either chance or error on Moffat's part (out of universe). (I was 89 earlier.) --2.101.59.118talk to me 10:21, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I agree, but I am not sure what that gets us. Because ghost River is not "a living being", she could "fail to answer or speak falsely." Except it would seem she did neither.She answered the question of the GI, to the TardisTomb, and the TardisTomb opened. So either she did not speak falsely, or she had a secondary access command. The point may be that because she was not alive, she could get away with not speaking/verbalizing the command.
But Ghost River will act like River, in this case not allowing GI to kill the hostages. But does ghost River really think she is being clever by not letting GI have the Doctor's name, but letting him into the tomb? The Doctor seems to be putting more importance on the latter than the former, though that could also be a dodge. What practical advantage for the Doctor (or Moffat) to use Ghost River here?
Perhaps because the one way that Ghost River can function differently than River is in being a Ghost. Ghost River can just vanish once she has had her farewell with the Doctor, What would River do in the rest of the episode if she were there? Would she let Clara go into the Timestream, or would she do it herself? Clara is the Impossible Girl, so she must be the one who goes, but why/how would River know that? By staying behind she can tell the Doctor that Clara (unsplintered) is still alive. Would she let the Doctor leave her behind when he went after Clara? It strikes me that Ghost River serves to 'neaten' things up a bit for Moffat, by having a person that knows what River knows,(the Doctor's name, & its significance to him) acts like River acts (heroically, but compassionately) to a point, but can just drop out of the story as needed.
I need to look at Ghost River's last scene again. I know she mentioned Spoilers with respect to Clara, I think. But did she mean it, does she know something more about Clara, or was it just a last bit of flirtatiousness? Did she know that she was the Imposssible Girl? How might be important. Bringing someone who does the impossible is a good way to foul up a prophacy.Phil Stone ☎ 03:46, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
We don't know (& neither did the Doctor) what River knew. We know that the Doctor's real name was a way of gaining access to his timeline. We don't know that's all the knowledge of the Doctor's name could be used for. River might have been conducting a damage limitation exercise.
Suppose she knew:
- The GI entering the Doctor's timeline without knowledge of the Doctor's name could be counteracted (as it was, by Clara).
- The GI entering the Doctor's timeline with knowledge of the Doctor's name could not be counteracted -- not fully, anyway.
- Threatening Clara, Vastra, Jenny & Strax would eventually make the Doctor reveal his name -- possibly after one or more of the hostages had been killed.
Anyone who knows the Doctor as well as River does would know that he would reveal his name to save the hostages.
River is certainly aware that knowing the Doctor's name is a way to gain his trust. She used it that way in the Library. That, on its own, would make knowledge of the name dangerous. The GI or someone acting on the GI's behalf could use the name to gain the Doctor's trust at a critical moment, allowing the GI to do really terrible damage.
By opening the tomb when she did, River stopped the GI learning the Doctor's name & kept all four of the hostages alive. That included Clara, who was the one who counteracted the damage to the timeline.
Someone set Clara up to be at Trenzalore. The unknown "woman in the shop" wrote down the TARDIS phone number & told Clara it was a helpline -- "the best in the universe". Without that number, Clara wouldn't have been at Trenzalore to put things right. If she'd been killed before the GI got into the tomb, Clara wouldn't have been able to put things right.
River has always been my prime suspect for the "woman in the shop". Next on the list is someone acting on River's behalf. What's more, even Amy is involved, if only peripherally, via her book Summer Falls. --89.241.74.86talk to me 11:47, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
That all makes good sense. And if Ghost River knew Clara's importance she would do what she had to do to get her in. If River was the woman in the shop, then Ghost River would know something of her importance. But for River to be the Woman in the Shop, she would have to know of Clara's importance. But River could not presumably learn that Clara is the Impossible Girl from Ghost River. Which suggests that Clara and the Doctor will meet River again (or leave her the sort of message that as an archeologist interested in the Doctor, she will find.)
Unless: If Clara was everywhere, was she at the Library? If so, what happened to her? Was she amongst the people that Cal saved long ago? In that case its not clear that she could have saved the Doctor. If she arrived later, without the Doctor's advice she would have been lunch for the Vashtanerada. If she arrived at just the right time for him to not be aware of her (or it was one of those occasions she mentioned where the Doctor doesn't hear her) she might survive, but would River learn of her? If River knew of her before, she might preserve her secret as a Spoiler. But if she didn't know before the Library could she gain knowledge then? (If River met Clara at the Library, why would she trust Clara? Perhaps Clara told her that she knew that River knew his name. It may even have inspired River to tell him his name to gain his trust.) Would Clara have a com link or device that would allow Cal to save her to the hard drive/virtual world where Ghost River could meet her? (That would not solve the problem of River knowing to be the woman in the shop.But it would cover Ghost River, and the woman in the shop might be someone else.)
Obviously there is room for every Doctor story to be reconsiderd with respect to Clara, though most don't need to be. But given the question of what River knew of Clara, and when, all the River stories probably should be (gently) reconsidered. Particularly the Moffet stories, like the Library. Just as we later learned there was a scene in the forest on the space ship which was not at all what it appeared to be, there may be something else to be "seen". Though perhaps if it's worth examining, it should have its own thread. Of course if River shows up herself and can learn about Clara, then it would all be much ado about nothing.Phil Stone ☎ 14:18, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
Phil Stone, "If Clara was everywhere, was she at the Library?": I was wondering when someone else would spot the possibility that River set Clara up to be at Trenzalore because Clara told her to -- maybe not in the Library but sometime. The idea that Clara, either in her future or via one of her "echoes", initiated the whole process of which she was the result would be another of the "bootstrap" paradoxes of which Moffat is so fond.
"If River met Clara ... why would she trust Clara?" By the time Clara entered the Doctor's timestream, she was starting to remember the events of Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS. During those events, Clara learned the Doctor's name. If she remembered that, then (either in her future or as one of her "echoes") Clara would have been able to gain River's trust in exactly the same way River gained the Tenth Doctor's trust -- by whispering the Doctor's name. By then, too, Clara knew that River knew the name, so (a) she'd not be giving the secret away to someone who didn't know it & (b) River would know that it was the right name. (I was 89 earlier.) --2.96.16.231talk to me 15:02, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
- Clara was in the Library, wasn't she? In the The Name of the Doctor, when Clara is in the Doctor's time stream, we see Ten at the Library, so presumably she was there. Shambala108 ☎ 15:32, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, Clara saw Ten & Donna from behind, as they looked out from the balcony (or whatever it was). I wasn't doubtful that Clara interacted with River in the Library because I thought Clara wasn't there but because I thought that might be a bit too late in River's timestream. If Clara needed River to set things up, there'd not be much point telling her so only just before she (River) died & when River was rather fully occupied, anyway. Catching her at an earlier point in her timestream, when River would have the chance to do something about it, would make more sense. --2.96.16.231talk to me 15:48, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
- This is such a brilliant conversation because we are all trying to figure this puzzle out! It's not an "I'm right, you're wrong" debate. I'm learning something from everything I'm reading.
- I only read some of the newest comments (above) because it's blowing my mind trying to follow the discussion. I'll get to more later. But a few things that occur to me:
- * The implications of Clara actually interacting in the Doctor's timeline throughout his life. I know that this is a new storyline and Moffat can't go back and rewrite DW history so I guess that we just have to take it on faith that the Doctor was too absorbed in whatever he was doing not to notice (until Christmas 2012) that he'd encountered Clara hundreds of times before. It does stretch plausibility even more so than postulating a Big Bang II!
- * If there was any foreknowledge on River's part about what was going to occur why would she (and the Doctor) tell Clara not to enter the timeline and then later try to discourage the Doctor from entering it himself. If she knew that Clara would actually help the Doctor's timeline, why would she discourage her from going? Because she didn't know this. Compare this to Amy...she had no way to know if Amy was even going to end up in the same location and time as Rory but she didn't discourage Amy from trying. Badwolff ☎ 20:57, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
- River might well "tell Clara not to enter the timeline", if she already knew that she had done so & that Clara had gone ahead anyway. The same applies to "discouraging" the Doctor. Think back to Series 6, especially The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon. River will go to extreme lengths to conceal her foreknowledge & to make sure events occur as they should. That characteristic can only have been reinforced (strongly) by her memory of what happened when she tried to change an event -- admittedly a fixed point -- in The Wedding of River Song.
- On the point about Amy: In Blink, the Doctor told Billy Shipton that he thought the same Angel had got him as had got the Doctor & Martha, because they all ended up in the same year. They also ended up close enough together for the Doctor & Martha to find Billy almost as soon as he arrived. There was only one Angel in the graveyard at the end of The Angels Take Manhattan. If River knew -- from the Doctor or from the book she had when they visited the crashed Byzantium -- that an individual Angel would always send its victims to about the same time & place, she could be fairly confident that Amy would find Rory again. We don't know River did know that fact about Angels but she behaved as if she knew it. (I was 2 earlier.) --92.17.167.53talk to me 22:33, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
- Only starting to think that? (I've been 2 & 92 recently.) --89.242.73.239talk to me 01:57, June 11, 2013 (UTC)