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  • CzechOut
    CzechOut closed this thread
    13:11, May 12, 2013

    We've already moved the Lodger Cybermen as well as the Good Man Cybermen to the Mondasian pages because they match the charactoristics of them better, what with their lack of "C's" to their giant space army, so can we move the Cybermen from Blood of the Cybermen as well, sense they have the exact same characteristics?

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    • I seem to recall saying, years ago, that all the Cybermen variants should just be on one page, because we don't have the narrative evidence to support individual articles. The situation is similar to that at the Master. To my mind, everything should be at Cyberman.

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    • [Thread moved to The Panopticon. This is clearly about the editing of multiple articles, and the editorial approach the wiki takes to a major narrative element. It's not just a question of fact, which is what the Reference Desk is for.]

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    • They're Cybermen which are from different universes and significantly differing origins, while the Master is the same individual being with really convoluted and unintuitive dabbing until the whole {{Delgado}}, {{Ainley}}, etc. thing came about. (Mondas) and (Pete's World) aren't, even if one could argue "Pete's World" is a little informal a way of describing the parallel Earth (if it wasn't called that on this wiki, I probably wouldn't have noticed the phrase in Doomsday). Strongly opposed to moving them to one page. If they developed independently in the same universe I could possibly argue the fact, but as the Army of Ghosts/Doomsday/The Next Doctor Cybermen are from a parallel Earth, thus they fit the same pattern as Peter Tyler (Pete's World) and Jackie Tyler (Pete's World). IIRC, rather than being an overview page like it is now, Cyberman was for some time the page for the "normal universe" Cybermen alongside Cyberman (Pete's World).

      (As a side-note I'm guessing OS has confused the Craig Owens stories The Lodger and Closing Time, as The Lodger doesn't have any Cybermen)

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    • If by "some time" you mean 15 minutes, then, sure. In the days before he was exiled from Wikia, Ausir created the current iteration of the article as the overview it currenty is. He added the Pete's World section within about 15 minutes of the article's creation back in 2010.

      Prior to this, the word "Cyberman" had sometimes been the title of a page, but, after the premiere of Rise of the Cybermen, it was mostly a redirect to Cyberman (disambiguation), and sometimes a link to Cybermen.

      The wiki predates the existence of Pete's World Cybermen, so for about two years, the word "Cyberman" was the title of the page now called "Cyberman (Mondas)". After that, "Cyberman" was tossed around several times, but it mostly retreated into obscurity as a mere redirect. Ausir's resurrection was always intended as a way to give the word "Cyberman" a meaty article. And since it is that, without controversy, I don't see how it's that big a leap to simply flesh out those sections even further.

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    • That's fair, but I agree that merging the two pages is pretty outrageous.

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    • Perhaps a third page could be created for cybermen who aren't clearly stated in-narrative to be either Mondasian or from Pete's World. I agree with CzechOut that it's a bit audacious of us to guess where particular cybermen are from when the creators of the show didn't deign to tell us; there could well be a third or fourth origin somewhere off-screen. It's probably safe to assume all cybermen from the "classic" series and its spin-offs are Mondasian, but I'm not comfortable making that assumption with cybermen seen during the Moffat era. I'd be fine with merging all cybermen into a single article and giving narratively unclear cybermen their own section.

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    • I disagree.

      For once, merging all of the Cybermen onto once page is a terrible idea. It's not like The Master, where all the the incarnations of the Master are basically the same person, the two Cybermen are completely diffrent and shown to be such.

      Also Assimilation² shows the "moffet era" Cybermen in that story to be Mondasian. So labeloing others as such is not that crazy.

      And although not considered a reliable source, the Brilliant Book 2012 (Or maybe 11?) identifies them as Mondasian, showing that the creators definitely meant for them to be so. Wheather we should count this in our desision is debateable, and doubtful.

      Creating a seperate page may be managable, but it still sounds like a bad idea to me.

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    • Well, clearly there's enough narrative evidence to support separate articles for the Pete's World and Mondasian variants. The tricky part is deciding where to put Cybermen who aren't explicitly one or the other. I don't understand why a source as official as the Brilliant Book would be considered unreliable, though; I suspect it's another example of admins buying into the slippery slope fallacy and mistakenly thinking that if one non-narrative source was allowed, all of them would have to be. Unless someone from the BBC came out and said that readers should take the Brilliant Book series with a grain of salt?

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    • What you ignore when you blithely combine the words "slippery slope" and "fallacy" is that some slopes are actually slippery.

      It is a demonstrable fact on this wiki that allowing in some non-narrative sources does in fact lead to other non-narrative sources, of much lesser quality than the Brilliant Book being let in. I can point to hundreds of articles where supposed facts from things like Doctor Who: The Encyclopedia, various issues of DWBIT and any one of the written-in-universe-style of reference books have crept in.

      The slippery slope is only a logical fallacy when there's a slope, but no ice. There's tons of ice 'round the notion of the non-narrative, BBC-licensed book being used as a valid source in in-universe articles.

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